Dr. Layne Norton: Collagen is a Waste of Money! (But, is it?)

100 Risposte a “Dr. Layne Norton: Collagen is a Waste of Money! (But, is it?)”

1. Doesn't hydrolyzed collagen have the long protein already broken down making it easier/better to absorb?

2. Is there any vegan or plant-based alternative to collagen, or anything that could induce our own body's production?

3. Most of our senses come from the skin including many that only come from the skin. Therefore, any tiny improvement is felt drastically more than improvements anywhere else. I was feeling my initial 2-5g doses of collagen right away, years ago when I started. Now I take 10-15g and don't ever think of stopping.

4. I stopped watching Norton after his "review" of collagen supplementation. It became clear that he did not research this topic, and thus had no idea what he was talking about. If he is not doing his homework on this topic, chances are his research on other topics is just as shallow aside from his core area of expertise. Discarding collagen because it is low in leucine is just too funny because not everything depends on leucine, but he is so blinded by his expertise on leucine that he just can't see it. Collagen has other mechanisms of action (there are at leat two). Instead, and that is even funnier, he advised people to supplement with hydroxyproline instead. Which makes no sense at all. Proline is essential for collagen production, BUT hydroxlyation happens only later in collagen synthesis, meaning the body needs proline, not hydroxyproline, and has to break up hydroxyproline in order to use it for that purpose. But you know what hydroxyproline does increase? The chances for kidney or bladder stones. Yea, good job norton. I completely lost interest in any content from him afterwards.

5. As far as I can remember from other interviews, Norton is fine with supplemental creatine ( a tripeptide) and we do have data on absorption of dipeptides like carnosine and anserine.
   So my question is about any research on collagen di and tri peptides and absorption into the bloodstream.

6. As always great content. So I guess the question is if you take straight collagen versus collagen peptides is there a difference? Meaning do the Enterocytes function differently if you take straight, collagen, versa, peptide, collagen.

7. Any chance the benefits of collagen that arent found in supplementation or studies is actually just a confounding factor in the source product, like bone broth?

8. I'm just an engineer who doesn't know biology, so these videos are always interesting to me. I've been trying to figure out how to use Collagen vs Whey Protein in my weekly routine, where I swim in an intense interval training mode 3-4 times per week (like HIIT exercise) and try to lift occasionally. My exercise is generally in the morning before 10 AM. I generally put whey protein in my water bottle, so have it before, during, and after exercise.

   For Collagen protein, I consider it as part of my last meal in the evening. So perhaps with Greek yogurt at 7 PM every few days. This is because I recall hearing that Collagen protein might help with sleep. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

9. I take collagen with whey.. they are incredibly complementary… 30 grams of whey concentrate along side roughly 7.5 grams of collagen creates a pretty ideal ratio of amino acids that give a large boost to a number of different amino acid dependent systems, including things like glutathione production.

10. A couple of things off topic. I took creatine for a while and started peeing constantly. Stopped and it subsided. 64 years old and work out 5 days a week for maintenance. Also Berberine and hairloss. Can it have an effect? Also, the same for Boron. Hairloss?

11. Vitamin C and Copper.

12. In regards with stimulating collagen protein synthesis. I remember noticing the effect size of most papers using collagen supplementation was pretty moderate, but then I looked at synthetic di and tri-peptides (mainly in the realm of skincare, which most publications are ofc biased) and the effect sizes were pretty large

13. Science changes. And the good thing is so does Dr. Norton. Show him proof and he will listen.

14. Wearing the T-shirt vs just living it? TBH watched his video and compared his data to yours and did my own. This was diplomatic/objective. No need to ‘destroy’ diff views or shut them down. They’re key to good science. Thx

15. Great video, you're becoming one of my favorite creators in this space with the way you respectfully dissect others interpretations. I hope Layne responds as I also respect him a lot!

16. Questions that I have.

    How much Collagen were the participants given?

    If our gut also consumes collagen, then if dose is low, little if any collagen will get into the blood.

    Were they also taking Vitamin C and/other co-factors?

    Were participants doing exercises that worked the connective tissues to stimulate the need for growth/repair?

17. thank you.

18. I must be really unlucky, Collagen made no difference to me…. stoped taking it a year ago,

19. Norton focuses on collagen and ignores collagen peptides which is what most of us use. From what I understand, the peptide formulations are far more accessible and usable in the body. That seems to be where you're going with this.

    I wonder to what degree Norton is, perhaps somewhat blinded by his focus/ invested time on Leucine and muscle versus the rest of the connective tissues holding our bodies together… For a while now the distinction between collagen and collagen peptides has been discussed, but he totally ignores it.

    What say you big brain? Are these differences for real? Is everyone just imagining things here? Why is Norton ignoring the peptides?

    I follow all the work associated with leucine as I am 74 and want to ensure enough leucine in my early day meals to maximize protein muscle synthesis. Sarcopenia sucks. So I appreciate his work in this regard

20. 3:23 Where's the control group? Should there be a non-PRO, non-EX group?

21. Our body builds connective tissue. That much we know is true.

22. Interestingly, there have been some studies showing collagen supplements having a beneficial impact on bone mineral density. Would be interesting to understand the mechanism.

23. Uh-oh! Dr. Norton comes across as being a little touchy sometimes . . . are you really suggesting that he change his nickname from BioLayne to LinearLayne? I fear for your future, Nick, especially if you're going to take a poke at Huberman as well, though he's fairly even-tempered . . .

24. If for argument's sake it does help joints, tendons etc… What would be an estimate for the minimum dose to take per day for a meaningful effect? I currently take 25g/day of ''grass fed bovine collagen peptides (hydrolysed)'', which has 9g of protein for every 10g of powder. My joints feel better since I started taking it but of course this could be unrelated.

25. Why did you abandon the video filter for Dr. Norton's video after 4 minutes?

26. Tons of anecdotal affirmations for its efficacy. I too feel like my connective tissue is "better" when consuming Collagen Peptides on the regular. I think someone else to consider is that not everyone is looking for optimal skeletal muscle growth. Most of us aren't body builders, or even want to be body builders. I think there is a point at which carrying too much skeletal muscle is likely detrimental to one's health, though that might not be quite accurate on its face.

    Is it a waste of money though? Well….that question still seems unanswered.

27. Excellent as usual…..

28. Not just leucine, rather branch chained amino acids can increase muscle protein synthesis with exercise

29. I'd love to see a summary of literature on the topic of colagen from you. It's the only supplement that I take even though I'm not entirely sure if its doing anything. I've been taking colagen for about 4 years and anecdotally it seemed to have helped me a lot, but more importantly based on the literature that I've seen its very safe to take if its good quality, therefore in my mind the result is neutral-positive. (either its placebo and its doing nothing, or its actually doing something and i reap the benefits) Unless a very strong evidence comes out that disproves any positive effects on connective tissue, I'm gonna keep taking it.

30. You say 'a k a' but i think you mean "i e"

31. Keep holding these other 'influencers' accountable! Most viewers don't understand who's right or wrong, so it's important to look for the fundamental truth.

32. Just eat slow cooked beef with bones, you nerds.

33. Not a fan of youtube scientists, and this is one reason. When a scientist starts waving their PhD thesis at me and then goes on to pave over any nuances in the data like for example the studies he is pointing out are very small and only 25 year olds, no, I don't have much respect for them.

34. I recently saw a pretty good YT video from professional climber and nutritionist Dave MacLeod discussing some of the evidence and why he does NOT take collagen supplements. Climbers are particularly interested in this question, as anything that might help strengthen their finger tendons and ligaments in particular would be highly advantageous. So lots of climbers take it. But Dave is not convinced.

35. Pork rinds are rich in collagen 😉👌

36. I have/ had steroid induced osteoarthritis. I took good quality marine collagen at around 1g daily for about a year. I continued to get pains in my hip and thigh bones, notably at night. I switched to bovine collagen and the pains reduced and then stopped within about 10 days.

37. I'd love for you to touch on the idea of "longevity health benefits of glycine(collagen/gelatin)."
    There's more to life than muscles and tendons. Iirc diets high in methionine shorten lifespan(in mice), but when sufficient glycine is present this "detriment" goes away. I view collagen as potential buffer and beneficial for hair, skin, and arterial health. Am I wrong in thinking this? I'd love your take. Great video as always!

38. Nice bowl of oxtail soup a few times a month?
    Refrigerate it, and it becomes jello – a lot more collagen than you can get from a bottle, and much much cheaper.

39. i put a big spoon in my wheyshake additionally anyways.. who sais one gas to take collagen solo??!

    what the heck is he constantly talking about leucine and mtor / muscle protein synthesis..?! it's about cartilage and tendons like type1/2 fibres.. is there any much leucine in our collagen dominant structures? nope..

    cartilage etc has a totally different and slow metabolism, i think that these peptides are very beneficial.. nobody takes collagen to increase muscle mass…

40. What would be the amino acids that help in connective tissue/ collagen synthesis?

41. Lane is lame

42. No Amendments, currently.

43. Works, no question. Joint pain. no brainer.

44. Love to hear both your and Dr Nortons take on this. Great content as always!

45. Luecine in the sky with diamonds…

46. I put a scoop of collagen in my coffee every morning hoping it slows down aging of my skin and there is some reason to believe that glycine is beneficial. Collagen is a great source of glycine.

47. Sorry, but should i take for my bad knees or not? Or is it similar to Pascal's wager – we don't know if it works, but by taking it in case it doesn't work i just loose a bit money, but if it works I'll be winning big time?

48. Thanks!

49. So if collagen is bad then bone broth is bad. Ha. Hardly. I hate all theSe naysayers

50. Doctor BCAA

51. We know that glycine promotes collagen turnover, right? So even if you're breaking down collagen you're still getting glycine and others

52. How about building collagen from l-lysine, l-proline, ascorbic acid, supported by bio available silica and a dash of manganese?
    Besides that, I take zinc/copper 25/2 mg daily.

    I do this because my blood vessels have been damaged by a very bad lifestyle before I knew better…. 🙃

53. Good timing!

54. Is taking bone broth and collagen redundant?

55. Layne Norton….lol

56. Excellent video as always. Curious, if in your search if you find whether the supply hydroxyproline from collagen influences collagen synthesis. I could have sworn I had read something along the lines of, post-translation of proline decreases as we age, or uptake/absorption of proline is reduced (aside from just reduced AA uptake in general). Also, using leucine as a signaling molecule for collagen synthesis, could this perhaps be non optimal (i.e. skeletal muscle synthesis vs. collagen synthesis require different amounts of precursor)? To add, some octapeptides have also been shown to be absorbed in a rat model, although these were made from D amino acids (doi: 10.1073/pnas.91.5.1942).

57. I'm not going to stop taking collagen in my smoothies. It's just one of my protein sources. I eat meat, eggs, and dairy as well.

58. great video and methods

59. My wife use collagen protein in her coffee everyday. Left to her own devices she will not consume enough protein. So the collagen protein is 20 gms of protein she wouldn't get any other way. Therefore it is a benefit.

60. Lucine is purposely left low in this product that should be obvious. The other item to remember is that most of us are not dependent on these supplements being the only supplements me are taking, nor are they the only source of dietary protein we are consuming.

61. What about the impact of collagen supplements on nails and hair? Also, collagen contains a great deal of glycine, while whey protein contains cysteine. If you take both, you have the building blocks for your body to make glutathione, a powerful anti-oxidant that declines as we age.

62. No, gristle cuts are cheap. Eat your gristle. Paying high prices for gristle is well just idiotic, especially if the goodies are being left out. The meat around the bone and connective tissue is just plain yummy. Also not adding saliva peptides to the gristle must have a detrimental effect.

63. Collagen works. I don't care if science knows it yet or not. I started megadosing it and my psoriasis vanished off my knees and elbows after suffering for years and trying everything else.

64. I hope you won’t attract any undue attention from Lane over this. I’ve seen him be pretty vicious and defending himself. It doesn’t really make any sense for someone of his statue to be like that. I say you’ve been very judicious in your remarks, but you never know how he’ll take things.

65. I'm surprised that Norton mixed up casein and whey proteins. That's a pretty big slip up imo. They both might come from dairy, but they are very different.

    My body has no problem digesting whey, but A1 casein proteins are a complete no-go for me (and subsequently turns me into a mucus super factory for a couple days, if ingested in a non well cultured form i.e. milk vs yogurt or 1+ yr cheese).

66. Near retirement age, finger nails were getting thinner and tearing easily. They have grown so thick and strong since taking collagen. Like fountain of youth for nails.

67. It supplies a ton (Grams) of glycine, and NAC supplies cysteine, that there's your GSH. I could be wrong, but I hope I''m not.

68. This (awesome) video touches on muscle and connective tissue, but what about skin? Collagen supplementation has been confirmed by meta-analysis to improve skin elasticity and reduce wrinkles. To me that suggests some functional benefit of collagen supplements. I'm curious whether the collagen intake stimulates production of collagen, or whether the effect is more superficial.

69. People take any chance they can get to dunk on popular supplements.

70. Individual Amazon acids? Glycine. I’ve read many studies indicating collagen reduces pain, increased cartilage synthesis. Additionally, it improves cognition.

71. I eat beef protein and my connective tissue is just fine

72. So much benefit to my own personal health that I don't care. Perhaps it's the large amount of Glycine that comes into my diet to work with the NAC I take. The resulting Glutathione has been having a very positive impact on the NAFLD markers I've had in my blood tests. My skin issues have been greatly improved and I don't notice the crepe look anymore. Skin looks like it did over a decade ago. Those two items alone have me sold on Collagen Peptides. But wait, there's more! Perhaps placebo, but my joint mobility has changed significantly over the last year. I could not get into deep squats or have full hip rotation without snap, crackle and pop along with significant pain for over a decade, PT and so on was not really making progress. Since using Collagen Peptides for a year, that's gone and I can do asian style deep deep squats and more in my 50s. No snaps, no pops, no crackle and no pain!

73. Does the study that doctor Norton speaks of refer to bovine collagen or marine collagen? And have you taken in these two different types of collagen in your assessment as to whether it's good as a supplement or not. I have taken both and have found that the human body processes the marine collagen much easier but that's just what I found. And lastly I did notice that initially a year and a half ago or more when I started taking the marine collagen it seemed to work quite well on my rheumatoid arthritis in my back. But then after about a year referring to now the same supplement is not having the same effect anymore. I have been wondering if it's possible that taking collagen regardless of whether it's bovine or marine is it possible that the body knows the limit of what you can take and then after a while discards it and maybe that's why it no longer has an effect on me anymore. Anyways hope this helps

74. Are there any studies that would favor single set high intensity training for hypertrophy? Mike Mentzer H.I.T. and heavy-duty training is on the rise.

75. Yes, collagen does help with connective tissue because I've had chronic demertitis for 20 years and by taking collegen it helps prevent my skin from cracking/spliting compared to not taking it.

76. I have been taking marine collagen and my joints and shoulder problems have felt much better along with other supplements.

77. All I know is collagen peptides have helped me tremendously with stiffness, soreness, my ligament in my knee and my feet. It didn't take long either.

78. There is a paper that goes into depth on showing consuming at least 15g of collagen improves collagen synthesis and begins having an effect within 30 minutes of digestion surprisingly. Climbers use it for this reason. They found something like a 6% raw increase in tensile strength of tendons just 30 minutes after consuming collagen, at least from what I remember of the paper.
    Anecdotally whey protein doesn't stop the stinging in my tendons, downing 30g of collagen was the only thing that outright stopped it and started making my tendons better again. Without it my fingers sting and I can't grab my mouse without lightning bolts of pain. With it I get about 6 hours of use out of my hand with no stinging or lightning bolts.

79. Dudes just another guy who thinks he knows it all.

80. This is a subjective statement, since I wasn't being observed by another person. I took collagen for about 6 months, a brand I got at Costco; it came in a blue container. Anyway, I took 20 grams a day everyday, mixing it in my coffee. And again, subjectively, I noticed nothing. I didn't see my skin improve, my hair, my wound healing, etc. It was just a powder that made the coffee creamier but that was about it.
    Objectively, it would take a sizeable population and a double-blind placebo controlled study to see if collagen really works. HOWEVER, just because something "works" doesn't mean it's impressive. Take for example, laser helmets for hair loss. While there is some evidence to show that they do produce some hair growth, the results are hardly impressive. So sure, you can say they "work" because they produced an effect. Does this effect really justify the cost and use? Just my opinion, but they aren't worth the effort.

    Just because something "works" doesn't mean it works well. And perhaps that was Dr. Norton's point.

    Also one more thing, to the presenter, you sound like you're out of breath during the video. Perhaps it was your pacing?

81. Layne Norton is a fraud and always has been

82. Oral collagen upon digestion is broken down into is individual amino acids anyway, and the amino acids in collagen are also present in whey protein, just in slightly different ratios, so why would collagen add much over someone already consuming whey protein?

83. I can say I tried various joint supplements as a 55 year old BJJ black belt. The only supplement that I felt a marked improvement in joint function and overall movement was hands down collagen. Now that is anecdotal but I’ve tried lots of things. And when 10 other items did nothing and one did you take note.

84. Layne does some great stuff but he’s also fairly dismissive and inflammatory in his diatribes, especially in regards to things like this; things he doesn’t actually specialize in.

85. Ok, but most people take Collagen Peptide supplements and not Collagen Protein in its whole form

86. I'm using collagen (1, 2, 3, 5, and 10) as a temporary supplement for my resistance training and simultaneous dieting for weight loss (yes, it does in fact work). When I'm done wioth the weight looss phase, I'll just be shifting over to ground beef for natural collagen by way of whole food. Using collagen to protect my joints a bit, as I'n older now and still want to work out. Might pair it up with glocosamine, which really works wonders for joints as well.

87. the book "the collagen cure" makes it clear why we need collagen or at least 10 grams of glycine a day for optimal health. And literally, everyone I've talked to who takes collagen and/or glycine sees dramatic benefits. I appreciate scientist who get lost in data and theories… but like… it works. Everyone can see it with their own eyes. Feel it. Live it. It's about figuring out why at this point. Who knows… maybe there is some really complicated counterintuitive reason… but collagen and/or glycine optimizes connective tissue.

88. I did an experiment where the only thing I changed was my collage intake 3 months on, 3 months off – I cna say for sure my skin looked better ok collagen, particularly the skin on my hands which has always looked papery since I was a teen. So I think considering it’s harmless enough even if the science is not there I definitely see a benefit, is for me it’s a go.

89. In Norton's collagen video, he doesn't appear to know the difference between "connective tissue" and "muscle connective protein". Which is what the study he's reviewing measured. Further, he doesn't appear to know what a bioactive/bioavailable peptide is.
    Probably the key MOA for hydrolyzed collagen is via unique di- & tri-peptides, which get absorbed INTACT into serum. These act as signalling molecules, causing skin cells, for example, to synthesize hyaluronic acid & collagen. These peptides also have a novel anti-inflammatory effect.
    The Rohm et al study you mention demonstrates the bioavailability of short peptides from meat, not collagen.
    Hydrolyzed collagen is rich in glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline (hyp). Peptides containing hyp are rare in the food supply.
    Also, these 3 amino acids in their free state have positive effects.
    These MOA's explain why hydrolyzed collagen has documented benefits for skin and joints, possibly also blood vessels & intestinal tissue.
    So, hydrolyzed collagen isn't good for building muscle tissue. But it's good for other types of lean mass, including probably collagenous tissues that connect directly to muscle.
    For a PhD, he's a bit sloppy. He knows a lot about leucine. But he hasn't done a deep dive into collagen.

90. Thanks so much for your take on this, Nick. I appreciate your insight into statistical nuance. It's super helpful to this student! I do add marine collagen and a bit of gelatin to my (warm-ish) cacao. I'm not sure it has much of an effect on my connective tissue because I also take L-Glutamine and when I take both my knee and ankle stop screaming at me. But I mostly take the collagen because I love what it does to my cacao. It's like drinking dessert. 🙂 If I get a modest benefit to my body – cool!

91. Yes, It Is

92. I think his point is not that collagen supplementation does nothing, but more that it's better to supplement something else like whey instead.

93. so basically your point is that you can't agree because we can't be so sure…. meh. This video was unnecessary.

94. I agree with you that collagen might have benefits. I believed that collagen is a nonsense based on the same presumption as Layne. But we could observe improvements in athletes in joint functions when supplementing collagen UC-II. You now added a mechanistic possibility to my knowledge 🙂
    DOI:10.1185/030079908X291967
    doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-10-48
    DOI: 10.3389/fphys.2023.1089971

95. Not just that, but having collagen during dinner helps me sleep a full night. Maybe it's the glycine content.

96. I competed in the Olympic games and track and field, and I'm now 60 years old. and I have been coaching athletes for the last 30 years to make Olympic teams and set world records. One of the most outstanding things that I have ever seen in connective tissue strengthening and recovery for myself and other athletes, was to add collagen along with whey protein. and when it comes to amino acid breakdown collagen has more l-glutamine than whey protein and over the last 30 years I have personally had over 100 people tell me how much their joints feel better after using collagen peptides. oh yeah one more thing I hold several world records for the age group in track and field, I also am coaching and athlete on his nutrition who is 53 years old who just set the world record in the 200 m for the over 50 athletes, and yes he is using collagen. Olympic athlete Wyndell Dickinson.

97. But, if we have limited money, do we really need to spend it on collagen vs other things? Over 10 years that's a lot of cash. Does it really add much when stacked on top of exercise and a good diet?

98. Haven’t watched the video yet. My pre-video opinion – there is little benefit from collagen as it’s broken down into amino acids and used as regular protein. Likely there are still some studies showing some improvement in joint health with collagen supplements.

99. Be very critical of fake doctors. He pretends he knows it all but he doesn’t. PHD doesn’t make you know it all. He is also building cult like bs like CrossFit. Confirmation bias Kant he is 😂

100. So many people "feel" like collagen supplementation helps them. Is it possible that, in people who are protein deficient, collagen supplements help simply by increasing their overall protein intake? A while ago I had started to take collagen and I indeed, after a month or so of taking it, felt like I had better skin and joints. I stopped wanting to spend the money on it and instead switched over to just eating more protein in my diet in general. I started feeling even better.

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